Hi Mark, Jim, David, and “Cisco” Tom,
I’m currently working my way through Acts (on my way through the rest of the NT) and an assignment with which I have on a number of occassions challenged others: to identify the dominant characteristics of the NT church, and then to contrast them with the dominant characteristics of our own churches. It has long been my suspicion that the “top 5” lists may have no items in common, and that the “top 10” lists may have 1 or 2 items in common but not at the same priority or prominence levels.
If y’all can figure out how to restore the signs and wonders aspect and the evangelistic mission aspect please let me know. I can see the destination on the map but apparently don’t know where I am because I certainly haven’t figured out how to get there (to the destination) from here.
One area related to this issue of the true blueprint for the church, and one which has really captured my attention is the issue of the wine vs. the wineskins—that is, the work of Christ’s Spirit in building His people and church, and the temporary (disposable) structures which for a limited time serve as the repositories/dispensories of that (continuously being poured forth) effectual grace. In large part it appears to me that the church of today has become enmired in the same disastrous (traitorous?) preference for the wineskins rather than the wine, as did the religious leaders of Jesus’ day. (By the way, a great parable of this dynamic is to be found in the classic movie, “Bridge on the River Kwai.”) Our unwillingness to part with the old wineskins equates, by definition, to quenching the Spirit. The new wine will burst the old wineskins, so the choice becomes whether to quench the new wine when it starts bursting our comfortable old wineskins, or to abandon them and go with the new wineskins God always provides with the new wine.
It is one thing to call the church to be a successful religious corporation, and a far different thing to call it to be the church according to the NT blueprint. I think the thing going for the “seeker” churches is that their quest to make outreach the first work requires them to do incidentally a number of things which Christians are called to do in discipleship of Jesus, such as, “having this same mind in you which was in Christ Jesus, who did not regard His exalted position a thing to be clung to but humbled Himself and took the place of a servant to the true benefit of others, giving up His comforts, in fact, His life,” and “in honor preferring others above yourselves.” We RATS may take a number of exceptions to their theological motivations, but they end up following Jesus in some ways which are easy for most of us to neglect.
Anyway, those are some of my musings from the mud in which my wheels are spinning...
Grace and peace,
Craig Hofer
Fort Gatlin Alliance Church
Wednesday, June 27, 2007
Words and Works: Response
Fellow rats,
I just finished preaching through Judges, so here is my two cents. In Judges God works in the overtly miraculous (Gideon), and through providentially orchestrating the events of human history (Abimelech – 9:56). Even in Barak’s case the “stars fought from heaven”.
On the whole “words and works” issue. I would highly recommend anything by Sam Storms (http://www.enjoyinggodministries.com , but particularly “Convergence: Spiritual Journey of a Charismatic Calvinist”. He along with Grudem and Piper would be right in line with “R.A.T.S.” theology. I would love to see him speak at counsel some time. Maybe Louisville?
Personally I am re-reading Gordon Fee’s “Paul, the Spirit, and the People of God” (which is kind of a cliff notes version of his tome “God’s Empowering Presence” – also well worth reading). I do want to see and sense more of the power of the Holy Spirit in my life and ministry.
Interestingly, I just finished reading J.P. Moreland’s “Kingdom Triangle”. His manifesto means to “recover the Christian mind, renovate the soul, and restore the Spirit’s power”. It’s an interesting call to study, contemplation and spiritual formation, as well as “signs and wonders”!
Under the mercy,
Tom Welch
Southwest Church
p.s. On the previous question: Thomas Watson, the puritan author, in his book “A body of Practical Divinity” lists 17 ways we can glorify God. Number 14 is – “We glorify God by laboring to draw others to God; by seeking to convert others, and so make them instruments of glorifying God”. So the Glory of God is the chief end of the church, but being “missional” is a means to that end!
I just finished preaching through Judges, so here is my two cents. In Judges God works in the overtly miraculous (Gideon), and through providentially orchestrating the events of human history (Abimelech – 9:56). Even in Barak’s case the “stars fought from heaven”.
On the whole “words and works” issue. I would highly recommend anything by Sam Storms (http://www.enjoyinggodministries.com , but particularly “Convergence: Spiritual Journey of a Charismatic Calvinist”. He along with Grudem and Piper would be right in line with “R.A.T.S.” theology. I would love to see him speak at counsel some time. Maybe Louisville?
Personally I am re-reading Gordon Fee’s “Paul, the Spirit, and the People of God” (which is kind of a cliff notes version of his tome “God’s Empowering Presence” – also well worth reading). I do want to see and sense more of the power of the Holy Spirit in my life and ministry.
Interestingly, I just finished reading J.P. Moreland’s “Kingdom Triangle”. His manifesto means to “recover the Christian mind, renovate the soul, and restore the Spirit’s power”. It’s an interesting call to study, contemplation and spiritual formation, as well as “signs and wonders”!
Under the mercy,
Tom Welch
Southwest Church
p.s. On the previous question: Thomas Watson, the puritan author, in his book “A body of Practical Divinity” lists 17 ways we can glorify God. Number 14 is – “We glorify God by laboring to draw others to God; by seeking to convert others, and so make them instruments of glorifying God”. So the Glory of God is the chief end of the church, but being “missional” is a means to that end!
Words and Works
From: David Seckinger [mailto:david@parkwayfellowship.org]
Sent: Tuesday, June 26, 2007 3:45 PM
To: Jim Black; Mark Wood
Cc: Tom & Nancy Welch; Craig Hofer
Subject: Re: A few questions
Mark,
I have been looking at Judges recently and specifically this past week Gideon and the 3 signs the Lord gave him. This led me to wonder about the role of the supernatural in the life and experience of God’s people. Should the true church expect to see God’s manifest presence? Is it a test of authenticity?
It seems to me that all through the Old and New Testaments there was a inseparable link between the Word and works of God in life, in worship, in witness. Inherent in the Covenant promises and warnings of the OT is this idea that God would dwell in their midst and be their God and they would be his people and thus a witness to the nations. The evidence of his nature and power was to be on display in Israel (obey and they would like his works, disobey and they wouldn’t - blessings and cursings). The book of Acts begins with the affirmation that it is only as the believers know “God-in-their-midst”, literally indwelling them, that they could be holy and witness effectively. Again the witness of God’s character and power comes through his people. Again, the dual realities of Word (truth) and works (presence).
Some people feel that the presence of the objective written Word of God replaces the need or role of signs, wonders, and miracles as indications of God’s presence and power. But does it? The OT is full of the works of God even after the Law and other scriptures were established. Jesus life was full of miracles despite the fact that, as he showed them, the completed OT spelled out who he was very clearly. Peter’s quote from Joel seems to indicate that Peter saw no discontinuity between the “supernatural” ministry of Jesus and the ongoing ministry of the Spirit of Jesus in the last days despite the fact that the NT would eventually be written.
It is true, because of the fall, our experience of the supernatural and ability to discern and understand it are severely flawed. We must therefore always test and subordinate our experiences to the Word because of the dangers of subjectivity and counterfeit/evil powers. It is not the work of God that is being judged or scrutinized by the Word, but our experiences (which may or may not be his work).
So I’m wondering if the church can be defined purely in terms of things we do, or believe to align ourselves with the Word or there should be some testimony by God, that he is indeed dwelling in the midst of these people? It was the public sense that God was present that freed Moses to move forward after the Covenant was given- he knew it, the people knew it and that the nations knew it. How?
Because they were a people defined by the Word and marked by his works?
Sent: Tuesday, June 26, 2007 3:45 PM
To: Jim Black; Mark Wood
Cc: Tom & Nancy Welch; Craig Hofer
Subject: Re: A few questions
Mark,
I have been looking at Judges recently and specifically this past week Gideon and the 3 signs the Lord gave him. This led me to wonder about the role of the supernatural in the life and experience of God’s people. Should the true church expect to see God’s manifest presence? Is it a test of authenticity?
It seems to me that all through the Old and New Testaments there was a inseparable link between the Word and works of God in life, in worship, in witness. Inherent in the Covenant promises and warnings of the OT is this idea that God would dwell in their midst and be their God and they would be his people and thus a witness to the nations. The evidence of his nature and power was to be on display in Israel (obey and they would like his works, disobey and they wouldn’t - blessings and cursings). The book of Acts begins with the affirmation that it is only as the believers know “God-in-their-midst”, literally indwelling them, that they could be holy and witness effectively. Again the witness of God’s character and power comes through his people. Again, the dual realities of Word (truth) and works (presence).
Some people feel that the presence of the objective written Word of God replaces the need or role of signs, wonders, and miracles as indications of God’s presence and power. But does it? The OT is full of the works of God even after the Law and other scriptures were established. Jesus life was full of miracles despite the fact that, as he showed them, the completed OT spelled out who he was very clearly. Peter’s quote from Joel seems to indicate that Peter saw no discontinuity between the “supernatural” ministry of Jesus and the ongoing ministry of the Spirit of Jesus in the last days despite the fact that the NT would eventually be written.
It is true, because of the fall, our experience of the supernatural and ability to discern and understand it are severely flawed. We must therefore always test and subordinate our experiences to the Word because of the dangers of subjectivity and counterfeit/evil powers. It is not the work of God that is being judged or scrutinized by the Word, but our experiences (which may or may not be his work).
So I’m wondering if the church can be defined purely in terms of things we do, or believe to align ourselves with the Word or there should be some testimony by God, that he is indeed dwelling in the midst of these people? It was the public sense that God was present that freed Moses to move forward after the Covenant was given- he knew it, the people knew it and that the nations knew it. How?
Because they were a people defined by the Word and marked by his works?
Purpose of the Church?
Jim,
I need some perspective on knocking around a few questions, if you want to share these with the RATS guys that would be great
I’m trying to pull together some messages on the definition of the church- preaching, sacraments, discipline what passages would you recommend exegetically to go from, also are there other hallmarks, defining characteristics of the church you would stress?
I’ve also been thinking about this question in light of some of the council speakers.
What is the primary purpose of the church? Is the highest calling of the church to save the lost? While I believe it is an essential purpose I think we lose something by making it the primary purpose- The glory of God is primary.
In the Westminster cathechism is the chief end of man also seen as being the purpose of the church? I haven’t spent much time in the WCF but was wondering if you had any insight into it.
Thanks for thinking
Cheers
Mark
I need some perspective on knocking around a few questions, if you want to share these with the RATS guys that would be great
I’m trying to pull together some messages on the definition of the church- preaching, sacraments, discipline what passages would you recommend exegetically to go from, also are there other hallmarks, defining characteristics of the church you would stress?
I’ve also been thinking about this question in light of some of the council speakers.
What is the primary purpose of the church? Is the highest calling of the church to save the lost? While I believe it is an essential purpose I think we lose something by making it the primary purpose- The glory of God is primary.
In the Westminster cathechism is the chief end of man also seen as being the purpose of the church? I haven’t spent much time in the WCF but was wondering if you had any insight into it.
Thanks for thinking
Cheers
Mark
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